Nick Marsh is Head of Product at Wonderbly (previously known as Lost My Name), where he has the incredible privilege of managing the creation of stunningly personalised books for children that will last forever. Before that he worked in the ephemeral world of startups and digital design consultancy.
[00:00:00] Thanks very much. So, I'm very honored to be here, and given the chance to talk a little bit about the journey that I've been on recently with my colleagues at Lost My Name over the past few years, and what I'm going to talk about today is to sort of explore some of the connections that we've got in our company between the kind of the worlds of customer-centric product management which we've heard a lot about today already, and I'm sure many of you here are very familiar with some of these more traditional creator-centric imaginative techniques that are used in the publishing industry and in the entertainment industry more generally. So in this talk, what I'm going to do is tell you a little bit about the picture books that we make at Lost My Name and how they work, because it's important to explain them so you understand these sort of theories I'm developing, then I'm going to outline my theory that I've come up with basically as to what an imagination product is and what they do for our customers, and then I'm going to give you some examples of how we approach the design and optimization of these products at Lost My Name, and then finally I'm going to end with a few thoughts on what these ideas mean for anyone that works making products and maybe a little mission for everybody now that you know a bit more about imagination products.
[00:01:08] Before then, if you could just indulge me for a minute, I just want to share a little bit of news about our company, Lost My Name. Last week, we launched the result of a really big decision that we made early in the year to rename the company. We'd outgrown the name, which is associated with our flagship product, which is a book, a personalized book which is also called Lost My Name. And so in a sort of delightfully meta-corporate moment, we had to find a new name for our company. So our new name is Wonderbly. It's an imagined word which we've sort of come up with to invoke feelings of wonder, belief, And the notion that imaginative things often come with unexpected endings. And so I'm going to talk about the company as Wonderbly from now on, rather than Lost My Name.
[00:01:50] So, a little intro to Wonderbly: we're a full-stack publishing company. So that means that we do all aspects of publishing. We develop the products — that's my team — but we also sell the products direct to customers through a website that we also build ourselves; a very custom website. We do all of our own marketing, performance marketing, all other kinds of traditional paid marketing, as well as all our own kind of content marketing, PR, that kind of stuff. We make the products, we do outsource that to photobook creators, But we do take responsibility for manufacturing and shipping and we deliver customer service as well. So we've got this whole kind of stack, essentially, of getting a book to a customer in one company. We have some interesting investors from across the world. Companies like Google Ventures, and more recently Ravensburger, a very old German company that makes puzzles and other products for kids. It's about a hundred people working in London; over the past few years we have sold nearly three million books.
[00:03:38] We'll break that number definitely this year, at Christmas, and the flagship product, Lost My Name, is very, very popular. It's been a bestseller in the United States, in the UK, in Australia and Germany, in most the markets in which we've launched the product. So, these are the stories that we publish. They're all personalized books and we like to think they're the greatest personalized books in the world. And I'm very pleased to announce that this week we're adding another title to our range. It's called A Letter for the Littlest Bear. At the moment, we're doing some internal testing on it this week, ordering samples and so on. We'll be telling customers about it next week. It's the most sophisticated personalized book on the planet, and the cutest. And it enables you to write a letter to the newest member of your family from your whole family. And just as every family in the world is different, every bear family and the littlest bear is totally customizable. You choose how many bears, which bears in what order, what they're called - we'll assign gender pronouns automatically for you - and so on. It's super, super customizable. I can't wait to see all the different kinds of families that people create as bears over the coming years.
[00:04:31] So, I'm going to talk about the products we make. I just want to make sure everyone understands what these are. They're real, physical books. I've got some books down there if you'd like to see them later. But all the books exist as digital products initially, so if you go to Wonderbly.com you can browse them all. When you want to make one, you add in correct personal information, customize them so you can preview the book and read it on the website, and when you're to check out, you check out like a normal ecommerce site. And then in three to five days, depending on where you are, you'll receive a super high quality printed book in the post to give as a gift or read to a child in your life. So we think these books are much more than just books. And in fact, we've got this very big idea behind them all, and behind the company more generally, which really is the sort of company mission as well as a vision for the products. The books exist as vehicles to enable adults, mums and dads, and grandmas and grandpas, aunts, uncles, anyone that loves a child, to fill a child full of boundless self-belief. And we spent a lot of time working on those specific words. It's a big statement, a big claim.
[00:05:19] So, I'm going to explain a little about how they work and what I really do believe that they do. This is the core book range we have today. There's five titles. There's a couple more that are coming out this year as well. Really excited about so Lost My Name was our flagship product. It's a story about a little boy or girl who wakes up in the morning, they've forgotten their name, and they go on an adventure to discover it. Along the way they meet different characters and by the end of the story they've found their name. Every story is different based on the letter of your name. Journey Home is a story about a child who gets lost in space and has to find a way home. It concludes with the climax scene we have a satellite map of your actual house in the book and you eventually find your way home. The birthday chart of a birthday stolen and they go often an adventure to recover it. It uses the birthday to create a unique story. In Kingdom of You, a child is given some wishes by a Genie of the Unwashed Socks that they find in their bedroom, and they wish for the whole world to be full of their favourite things and calamity ensues and I'd mentioned Littlest Bear as well, which is based around your family.
[00:06:04] So, each of these books uses a specific piece of personal data to construct the story, as I mentioned before: they've got the name, the address, the birthday, interests, family. So, this would be the personal data for me. Some examples: that's my name, where I live, my birthday, my favourite thing, my favourite food, some people in my family. So what we do is we decompose the data into components and then we use these components to build out the beats of a story. And this essentially is the foundation of all of our products really. We put a beginning and an end on, because obviously all stories need to have a beginning and an end. And then we use this as the beginning for our creators. So then we start to weave the kind of classic story elements that you'll find in more traditional story development work and themes, around this personalized content. Generally our stories are sort of in this frame of what you would call "a dude with a problem story." Their story is about a protagonist who has a problem that needs to be fixed. Very Very common for pre-school books.
[00:07:06] We do have some other forms as well that we're working on. So this is The Journey Home and in this story, as I said, a child — they don't wanna go to bed. They go off into space; they get lost in space because of a calamity with their satnav where their robot sidekick spills lemonade on the satnav, and they have to find a way home — and the only way they can do that is by asking different people along the way to help them out and in return they help them out as well. Eventually, they find their way home, and it gets more more personalized as you get closer to home and sort of climaxing with the satellite map. So we sort of, do I think many of the things that you'll find in other other entertainment companies around storytelling, so in the journey home there's an exciting incident - the lemonade. There's a mentor that arrives, an alien zookeeper. There's progressive complications as the story gets more complicated. There's a moment of truth, which actually is not really to do with home at all; it's actually to do with friendship, and the way in which the robot — the stupid robot sidekick — turns out to be the savior at the end when the spaceship is on fire, and in the end we get a change in the hero and the world, which is that the child realizes that you know wherever they go they've always got somewhere safe to come back to. And we have these themes around it and as I mentioned, there's a kind of big idea in terms of the proposition as the story. There's no limit to how far you can go.
[00:08:25] You know you have somewhere safe to return to, which is like you do in the book. So the interesting and valuable thing that's happening with our stories that's different to other other conventional children's picture books is to do with this interface between reality and fantasy and what we're doing is we're pushing elements of reality into the fantasy of the story. So that's your name. It's your birthday. It's your address, and so on. And it has a big impact. Here's a quote from a customer then a photo that they sent into us, saying: A Journey Home little and The Little Boy Who Lost His Name are my son's favorite stories; he's five and thinks they actually happened to him because they are about him. And this is him being very sad because he wanted Hubble, his robot friend who I mentioned spills the lemonade, was going to play and he couldn't come. We did end up sending him a postcard from Hubble but you know, really emotional impact, and what's happening is because the reality is intruding into the fantasy and is surprising in subtle ways for young children in particular. It's making the fantasy more believable. And so all of those themes I mentioned around courage and kindness, adventure and so on become more believable. And so that process kind of reverses itself when a story is over and because of this the fantasy is more believable, had more elements of undeniable reality. It sort of increases the chances of the ideas resonating in reality later on and thus increasing the chances of the child having this self belief and belief that they could do something as big as go on a space adventure or be as helpful and kind as they are in the story seems to be working a bit. Here's the customer email we got. It's actually a few months ago we got this, but I picked this one out and used it in talks before just because it's so profound: "Thank you for something so incredibly special that I think has become a huge part of my daughter's childhood.".
[00:10:09] I mean, that's great. So, these products, we see them as imagination products, and I thought it would be interesting to talk a little bit about how we go about designing and managing them. I will do a disclaimer. I don't ever reveal any kind of like astounding new processes in this talk around product management and product design. The main thing that I hope you if you're sort of a product manager or a designer or someone working in that part of the business can take away from the presentation is not really new techniques, but it's sort of the creative confidence that the customer-centric techniques that you're using today can be used to create lots of different kinds of things even things that exist purely in the realm of the imagination. So what I mean by an imagination product. Well one way to think of it is imagination products are just literally products that are the result of very imaginative processes. They're literally made of imagination. Our products are in very imaginative worlds filled with imaginative characters and stories, they're brought to life in imaginative illustrations, imaginative writing, imaginative uses of technology, and as a result we use a lot of the traditional creative arts to bring them to life, and this is sort of the line of my talk about the pasta monster and the princess, but in this scene you can see a water princess defeating a pasta monster for example. Why? Well, because water is the enemy of all glutenous food. Simple.
[00:11:34] But another way to look at it is that imagination products are literally kind of imagination as a product. You know when a customer buys an imagination product, what they're buying is they're buying some imagination, they're buying it from us, borrowing and sort of renting our team's imagination. You know all of those artists and writers and so on. I just mentioned. And so you know, borrowing that imagination in my opinion in sort of language of product management, is the customer job to be done. It ought to be done. I need some imagination and we're renting it to you. So what job is being done for the customer of an imagination product? You know, without products, I think it is certainly becoming clearer to me as we develop them more and so on, speak to customers more about it, the customer job to be done is to help an adult to tell a child something very memorable and impactful to inspire their self belief. I mentioned earlier we're talking about some pretty powerful, you know, important stuff here, especially with young children. Early stage of their development. You know you're unique, you're an individual, you can do anything you want, you're in control of the things that you do, you're special, you know that's a really nice thing to say to a child, and Littlest Bear is for younger children and it's really just about saying you're loved, your family loves you, and making sure that child really understands that and believes it is a really important foundation for them growing into an older person.
[00:12:55] So the value exchange that you get with the imagination product happens in other imaginative media. Of course when you read an adult fiction book or you watch a movie or whatever, you project yourself into the world that another person has imagined, you know, you go on the case to solve the mystery with Sherlock Holmes. You know you're there just to destroy the ring with Frodo Baggins. You become a wizard with Harry Potter. It inspires you in all kinds of ways. With a children's picture book which is the medium that we're really really focused on, and it's different because we've got this more complex even though it seems really simple, and so every day there's a much more complex media delivery system if you like, at play. What happens is when you when you read a story aloud to a child, just Like the adult fiction book, the imaginative world inspires the child but the vital extra element is that you who is the reader are also kind of like the actor, director, special effects person and and so on. You have a lot of control over how the story is delivered so your performance as an adult has as much of an impact on the level of inspiration delivered to the child as the content and any of you that have read books to children will know, you know, you can, there's just so much more you can add beyond the story as well.
[00:14:10] So with the Wonderbly picture book, which is also full of this personalised content that's designed to muddy that fantasy/reality divide and get adults more engaged and involved, the adult makes choices upfront about what content to include. They're personally involved in the physical creation of the book because they have to buy it themselves and make it and there's this sense of agency in making. And then like any other children's picture book, they deliver the story, but then this story has all of that important, sort of reality/fantasy piece in the delivery of the story as well. So you can see that there's some kind of really important differences here between our imagination products and the more traditional ones and those differences make the products uniquely suited to using the customer centric design and product management techniques that we're going to be going to be hearing about today, and lots of other speakers.
[00:14:54] So the big difference, a huge difference for us from other publishers is that the product exists as software until it's made by the customer. And so because it's software it means we can do many of the things that you've already heard about today, so we can improve it constantly as you would any digital product, and we can change many different parts of it whenever we want. And that's also because with its full stack company and from a legal perspective, we own everything, which is very different than a lot of other publishers. So we can change the content, we can change the user experience of creation, we can change the way we position it and talk about it and this gives us a big advantage over traditional publishers in being able to be close to the customer and use those techniques. But secondly and maybe more importantly, the customer is just really really involved. You know they're not just a consumer. They're co-creator of the product and their co-deliverer of the media.
[00:15:44] And so we have to find ways to work with the customer at all these different points in the journey. I'd like, in this talk — I sort of came to a realization that, you know, maybe go a little bit Marshall McLuhan on this and say that, like, with this media product the customer is in some ways the medium. You know they're the thing that we're almost designing. We're designing the sort of way in which the customer delivers delivers the content. And so we're providing this kind of imaginative infrastructure that helps the customer and delivers the message of boundless self belief that they have inside of them, anyway, and they want to tell the children in their lives and we're just helping them do that. So all of this software and customer centricity means not just that we can, because we've got software, but that we must design our imagination products quite differently to other parts of the entertainment industry.
[00:16:33] So now I'll tell you a bit about how we do it. Hopefully there are some lessons and inspiration in there for you as well. First, I thought I'd sort of outline roughly and probably very unfairly how I think it's done in the publishing industry generally today. Here's how it works, the creator has great imaginative idea, or a crap one the editor that they've met somehow agrees that it is good; the creator and the editor work on the idea and that is normally a very productive creative relationship inside a publisher – the feedback you get from editors and designers and other people in the business and so on. When it's ready, then they print it or they ship it, or whatever, and then they see if customers like it.
[00:17:13] And the publishing industry has a sort of spray-and-pray approach, absolutely, especially to new talent. Far too many children's books published every year to make the business that sustainable and for new talent, very poorly paid and so on. Obviously with celebrities and brand names it's kind of different, but you don't really know how it's going to perform until, you know, you've done all that investment in the product. So we do things very differently as you probably would imagine. We bring the customer into the process as early as possible and then once we're live with the product, we use the vast amount of customer feedback that we get from all these different channels and the website, from our customer service teams, from structured research and so on, as well, to improve the product and make it easier to understand, to create, and enjoy for customers. So our process looks a bit more like this: ours is much more like a consumer product design process, really.
[00:18:03] So first, we try to start by identifying a kind of customer imagination need — you know, a need that you have as an adult to express something to a child whether that's about love or about encouraging us to go in a certain direction in terms of their abilities or something like that. So for example you know I need help telling a new member of the- you know, a young child, how much love I feel for them, you know, it's hard to say 'I love you' to children and you know that's why books like Guess How Much I Love You sell so many, because they sort of have this job to be done which is to express their emotion.
[00:18:38] So then we have ideas in response to that, internally. Now you've got to create a team and so on that develops ideas, and then you prototype the idea and get feedback from customers as quickly as possible, making sample stories, going and reading them to children and homes and so on, bringing people into our studios and getting engaged in that. Then, we launch all of our products as software tests. Essentially, they're all launched as tests and then we optimize on the presentation of the product, the content and so on, to raise conversion rates on the website and improve the experience with customers, and we keep doing that until we see diminishing returns.
[00:19:11] So basically, there's two parts of the process, and they should be really familiar, I think, to people working in product design and product management. We have sort of qualitative user-centred design techniques up front that we use to help to get to the core of the imaginative idea and get the idea as right as we can, and then we have these sort of quantitative data driven optimization techniques that we use later on, improving presentation and appeal to different groups of customers. And I thought I'd just illustrate that with a few examples as the last third of the talk.
[00:19:37] So first, some examples of how we optimize the creative content to convert as many customers as possible once we've launched a product in some form. So one very simple form of optimization, actually the most successful commercial optimization, is translating the products. For other publishers this is a really complex process, this elaborate stuff to do with international coalitions and so on, and with loads of complexity, loads of legal complexity, takes ages, but for us it's basically it's just a software release and it's not even that complicated of a software release. So we've translated Lost My Name to 12 languages. The eagle-eyed amongst you will spot some of these covers are different and some of them have the boy on the front, the protagonist on the front. And that's because those languages didn't perform as well in the tests as we wanted, in terms of the amount that we're selling, and so we simply cycled them out of the product's improvement process, and they haven't had the most recent software update. So this product, which included this new land of Lost My Name covers and so on, they still sit there, you can still buy them now on our backlist, but, you know, the product is just a piece of software that's being optimized and a huge optimization is to be able to read the book in the language that you speak.
[00:20:53] Another example, late last year we changed the last page of Lost My Name, which is the big climactic page - the page in which you realise all along actually the little word girl is you and the letters you've been collecting up make your name - to make it more colourful and to stand out. And we did this simply to improve the reading experience because it was customer reported it as a little anticlimactic, but we really did it to actually improve the advertising experience. The photos of the last page of Lost My Name are best-performing ads on Facebook and we spend millions, tens of millions, on posting that picture in front of people all over the world.
[00:21:32] And so, when we redesigned the page, we tested designs through the ads first, rather than testing them through the product, instead of shipping the design and advertising it. So by the time we shipped the design, we were confident that it had a sort of higher appeal, higher recall, higher, improved proposition understanding amongst new customers, and so on, and then we changed the product. That's the kind of thing that I think only a business like ours could do. Another optimization factor for us is gender. When we released our second book, The Incredible Intergalactic Journey Home, there was a huge difference in the ratio of boys to girls featuring in the stories, which is bad - there's a lot more boys than girls - because it means we're missing out on selling to a lot of girls. Lost My Name sort of pretty universal 50/50 split in almost every country that we sell in. So we did a big upgrade to the content and design effort to make the product more gender neutral. You can see, you know, through this cover change, how we move toward less harsh colours, try to move the emphasis from space to home, and sort of feelings around home. Limited success. Customers still think the book is about space and customers associate space with boy books. We did increase the appeal and raised number of girl books by about, kind of, four absolute percentage points in most of the countries we sell in. But we still see this as a book that is bought mainly for boys.
[00:22:46] One of the biggest impacts, really, of this test is it's very expensive actually; upgrading all this content was just a lot more effort upfront into ensuring that the subject matter of the books has broad gender appeal, because we're really missing out on a lot of customers. Once we wanted to tackle the gender gap on The Journey Home, another example, we moved to is the next biggest blocker for customers, so we survey customers all the time on the website with a survey we call "Why No Buy?" which I really like, and "don't know the address of the child" is always the biggest reported blocker for customers after price. We also optimize price a lot as well. So, on average, we had about 7 per cent of customers reported that not knowing the child's address was stopping them from buying the book. So we thought, you know, there's a nice little opportunity there. Let's raise that conversion rate by 7 per cent by allowing customers to create a book and buy it which doesn't feature the full address by swapping out the flagship piece of content, the satellite map in particular, with illustrated content, so if you want to buy the book right now, you can get this slightly more general content. Still has a child's name in it and so on, and the town, but you don't need know the exact address. The results were absolutely unspectacular and completely useless — again, another expensive, complex, you know, multi-team project to implement that feature.
[00:24:53] What we found was about 7 per cent of the books that were bought ended up featuring the less address content, but the overall conversion rate wasn't impacted at all. This is optimized the chart for a test — it ran for real long time because we really just were really rubbish at deciding what to do; an A/B test comparing the two versions. So the hypothesis was that not knowing the address was blocking people buying on the day, but actually it was only blocking them buying on the day, like the product appeal was still there, and what would happen is that those 7 percent who told us they don't the know the address so it stopped me from buying today, they were still going away and buying the book. So all that happened was we had seven per cent of people convert slightly earlier than they would have otherwise, and so I include this example because it shows in part the sort of limits of these kinds of approaches and how they very easily sort of top out within a local maximum, you know, this book is a book that is a lot about space where you do really need to know the address, you know, and without completely destroying the original idea behind the book it was going to be difficult for us to move on from that. So, to deliver the kind of really big business impact from our products, we need to design entirely new propositions for our customers that deliver against even bigger and more important needs. And this is where the qualitative and co creative process sort of comes in.
[00:25:58] So, I'd like to end the talk by telling a little bit about how we came to design A Letter for the Littlest Bear and tell you a little bit about a product we're releasing next year to illustrate how we use these techniques. So back in early 2016 we were exploring different personalization systems. We really sort of had started to professionalize the product development process a bit more, the company had got some new funding and so on, and so the studio was looking at appearance, birthday, child's interests, family members and so on as different kinds of personalization systems to begin the creative process around. And we had this idea of adding different family members and using that system to create a product proposition that would try and sort of fulfill the imagination need, if you like, of teaching a child about the importance of family and the role that family plays in your life and how important all the different members of the family are. And so, we developed a story, which seemed like a great idea at the time, called Super Family Go, where you were gonna add these different members of your family, and you're going to give each family a superpower, and the superpower is going to be some kind of expression of their personality, and the clever idea in the story, is going to be that in order to defeat a villain in the story, all the family members have to use all their powers together, so each person's going to try their individual power, it's not going to work, the combination of powers that's going to defeat the villain, make the point about how, you know, every family's different but every family needs to work together, and we thought it was all going to be very very clever. So, we made these kind of low-resolution books which we took out to test with customers, after we got excited about the whole thing, but when we went to test a story with kids and parents they were basically pretty underwhelmed. The story was too complex. Where sort of simultaneously too complex.
[00:27:18] So, there were too many characters, you had a lot of characters to introduce because we wanted to have at least like four, maybe up to eight characters or whatever — depends how big your family is. It was too sophisticated in the use of the superhero reference for the target age group because we were doing this as a sort of straight preschool picture book proposition, children sort of four or five, and you need to know a lot about superheroes in order to enjoy the idea that you're family having superpowers is cool, and so it is very complex, but it was also too simple, but because of all that complexity we couldn't really do very much plot development because we spent ages with all the character exposition and kind of setting up the scene of this family and so on. So these kids pretty much gave it a thumbs down. So we took away two main positives from the project: first, the idea of the whole family apearing in a book was super appealing to parents — they loved it; they loved the idea of the family in the book - kids to a slightly lesser extent, but the adults absolutely loved it. Second, the idea of becoming a superhero was really really exciting. That is a really exciting idea. Yeah, there's a bit more detail there, but anyway, becoming a superhero is very exciting kids and parents but basically bring both these ideas together for a kid who is about five years old that they could enjoy wasn't going to work.
[00:28:21] So, we basically just split the proposition into two products, to do a much better job of filling each imagination need for a specific audience and it's this kind of thing you can only get from going out really speaking to customers, really understanding the use of the products at home and so on. And so the top insight led us to A Letter for the Littlest Bear and a much younger audience. So instead of adding more to the family personalization system, like you've got to add the superpower and so on, we just thought we should make the story about who is in the family. It's basically a list of who's in the family. And that in itself is remarkable because the book is completely unique as is your family and you make we big fuss around who is the newest and smallest member. And also we solved another tricky issue that was brought up around kind of representation and the diversity of family members visually, because everyone's a bear so you can't complain about that can you. So a Letter for the Littlest Bear just basically tries to hit the idea of celebrating how special your unique family is, you know, on the noce. So just to end the talk, going back to the split- with the bottom piece we decided again super simple, super focused, and just give kids what they want: a starring role as a superhero in their own comic, and we're calling this product The Power Within, and it goes kind of a real step further towards this idea of inspiring boundless self belief than we've ever done before. And it goes goes older as well, so this is aiming for kids to read to themselves. We're looking at about seven-and-a-half, eight as the sort of target reading age group.
[00:29:48] So it's a story about a child who becomes a superhero and the foundational structure is this: a mysterious mentor - that's you - gives a child a map and a call to adventure and tells them to go out and find the power within. And, they go on the adventure. They discover the super power, and the mentors hint is kind of like repeated at various points throughout the process, and that superpower is chosen by you, the book creator, to be something that you feel is a reflection of an emerging interest in the child whether they're very into sports, so you give them energy, or something, or they're feeling very creative and you give them some creative powers. Then obviously there's a villain, who is the antithesis of the power. They use a superpower to defeat the villain, but actually, in defeating the villain, the way they do it is not really by using a super power, it's by helping the villain find their own true power within. And so in doing so, the child discovers that the ultimate superpower is actually helping other people find theirs just as the mentor has done with them, with giving them this book. And it was really really cool. And so far the kids who've tested it have absolutely loved it. I put this photo in. This a boy who is really really excited. As you can see, he's black, and people with his skin color are very underrepresented in superhero stories, and he's even more thrilled, than most, to see himself as a superhero. His parents are also very, very excited. But this one has gone down very very well. So the ultimate superpower is to help others find theirs. You know, I absolutely love this idea. This product is the very pure expression of what we want to do for our customers: give them these amazing imaginative powers to inspire the children their lives.
[00:31:26] You know, it's a super imaginative story with stunning illustrations and so forth, but from the bottom up, the product is built on helping someone else become imaginative — customers and the kids, you know, through the story as well. And it's about putting the customer's imaginative needs first and then our imaginative ideas are there to help them, and I hope that this is the lesson that you can take away: whatever role you have in designing and creating products — it doesn't matter if your products are filled with pasta monsters and water princesses or checkboxes and dropdowns; whatever your industry and the personal role in creating and growing the products, you know — I think your mission really is to help your customers find their own superpowers through your product.