Unbounce co-founder Oli Gardner has seen more landing pages than anyone on the planet. He’s obsessed with identifying and reversing bad marketing practices, and his disdain for marketers who send campaign traffic to their homepage is legendary, resulting in landing page rants that can peel paint off an unpainted wall. A prolific international speaker, Oli is on a mission to rid the world of marketing mediocrity by using data-informed copywriting, design, interaction, and psychology to create a more delightful experience for marketers and customers alike.
[Voice in audio system speaks]
Ummm, thank you. Who are you?
Inner Voice: [00:00:15] It's me. Your inner voice.
This is not the time. I'm giving a talk.
Inner Voice: [00:00:24] You can wait.
No, I can't wait, there's like 600 people here including some people I'm actually trying to impress.
Inner Voice: [00:00:30] They don't care. Look at them. Half of them are asleep.
They might well be, but what are you doing. What do you want? Why are you bugging me?
Inner Voice: [00:00:36] I just saw what you did to the homepage. What is that all about?
Well, you know, it's amazing, we're doing a complete brand refresh. It's called "A Day In The Life of a Marketer." It's going to be really great.
Inner Voice: [00:00:48] Booooring.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. It's good! Like it's going to have cinematic background videos. It's going to be awesome. We're going to have parallax scrolling, there'll be a big promo slider at the top with all these features, and it's going to be so amazingly good.
Inner Voice: [00:01:05] That sounds bloody awful.
But there's going to be an explainer video, and I guarantee you that will increase conversions by 20 percent at least.
Inner Voice: [00:01:14] How on earth do you know that?
I've read a blog post about explainer videos from an expert.
Inner Voice: [00:01:19] A blog post? Seriously?
We're going to test it!
Inner Voice: [00:01:24] Well what if it doesn't win?
If it doesn't win... well, I want to do it regardless. We spent a lot of time and a lot of money on it.
Inner Voice: [00:01:31] Are you kidding me?
Inner Voice: [00:01:31] You shut up!
Man, it's like this all day every day. Just yapping in my ear.
Inner Voice: [00:01:31] Oh yeah? How's the test going?
Actually, the test is not going very well. It's losing by about 10 percent. But whatever.
Inner Voice: [00:01:43] So it doesn't work.
We need to find a way to make it work.
Inner Voice: [00:01:48] That's not what the data says.
[00:01:48] You know what? That's the theme of my talk today. Not really. That was like a conversation I had with myself a few years ago. We made an explainer video, put it on the homepage and it tanked. And I wasn't angry at the data and I wasn't angry at the result. I was angry because our biases and our assumptions weren't confirmed. Like we were loaded with confirmation bias. Everybody thought this was going to convert so much better. The problem was that I didn't give any data to the copywriter, the marketer or the designer. So they're just kind of shooting in the dark. In fact I sent out a survey - a lot of you filled it in, thank you - and it said that 65 percent of you don't have enough data to do your job properly. And that's not good enough. That's not fair, it's not right. We can't do a good job with data like this. The biggest problem with what we did, is that there wasn't a single piece of data to suggest we should. No qualitative, quantitative, not even anecdotal data to suggest we needed an explainer video. We just did it because everyone else was doing it. I think that's not how we should be operating. We need to base our design decisions on data. And when I say design, or design decisions, I mean experience design. This is not just graphic design. It's everything.
[00:03:18] We can't just follow trends, because this is what happens every single trend. It's like 400 blog posts about why you should use an explainer video, followed by 150 videos in the form of explainer videos explaining why you need an explainer video. It's all coming to us all the time. It's not clear how it should be.
[00:03:46] [Discusses photos on screen] Now promise I didn't have this in mind when I gave one of our dogs that haircut. I thought you know some mohawk, some kind of mullet thing was going to be good, but I used human clippers.
[00:04:09] Everything I talk about - the slides, the tools and the process I'm going to show - you can get everything at this link. I'll repeat it a couple of times. The slides won't be there yet. I'll upload after I get off stage.
[00:04:24] I have done a lot of research and I think marketing teams are broken. Fundamentally flawed in the way we all work together. So I've been interviewing and serving hundreds of marketers, designers and copywriters to see kind of what they feel about working with one another.
[00:04:39] [Photos of three people on screen]. So we're going to give them three lives each and then we're going to hear what they think about one another.
[00:04:44] So let's start with a designer. "Writers want me to start designing before they give me the content." This is really common. 81 percent of designers say that they have to start their work before they get the copy. So no wonder we get template designs, because I don't know what the content is and I didn't get any data. That's why we get some kind of generic stuff.
[00:05:18] Marketer: "Writers don't understand that search engines see things differently to humans."
[00:05:22] Designer: "Marketers have no understanding of customer behavior. They're too myopic and enjoy navel gazing." So marketers are narcissistic apparently. "They don't respect designers and think they know how to do it." 98 percent of marketers say they're responsible for giving design feedback to designers and 87 percent of them think they are qualified to do so. Total bullshit. I have been doing this for 20 years on both sides and that's way too overconfident. There's a lot of misunderstanding between these different disciplines and a lot of frustration. If you ask the right questions to the right people in an anonymous way, they'll tell you.
[00:06:21] Marketers: "Designers are too sensitive."
[00:06:38] Put your hand up if you're a designer. Okay so everyone who doesn't have your hand up is wrong, you're completely wrong. Everyone's a designer. Design is just problem solving. We all solve problems every day. That's what we do as a marketer, writer or designer whoever you are. Your job is to solve problems.
[00:06:59] This is my this is my hero [MacGyver]. He can take any shitty situation, pick something up off the ground and fix it. It's amazing. This is how we should approach life. You see something broken, instead of just walking by it, you think: "How do I fix that?" Start thinking like this.
[00:07:20] Nicole, my fiancee, takes lots of baths. And that curtain thing is really annoying. Easy Solution. Just get a bungee cord because why not. Now it looks like the hotel would get that. Look how posh that looks. Beautifully wrapped together. I know it's a bungee cord but still it looks nice and it's much better with your elbow down there. That's my favorite thing to do.
[00:07:58] One of the biggest problems we have in the world right now is lack of empathy, and there's a lot of it sitting right with us. Designers are just built this way and if we only know how to kind of work with them and bring this stuff out we'll all learn how to be better optimized as designers and businesspeople. That's what design is, it's not just copying other people. That's not the right way to do design. Okay so there's a lot of design trends of course. Every year. Here is a big kind of map of design trends since the web started. I'll be missing some I'm sure. Some years there's an awful lot of them. And the problem is that theme designers, primarily, they put all of these in because of sales people. And then people who don't know any better buy one of these. Everything's turned on, like scroll jacking and all these awful things, and they're slow, clunky and over bloated, and they can be a UX conversion nightmare and they don't even know. Because you don't know what's happening. They don't know what's going wrong.
[00:09:01] I'm going to touch on a few of these but I want to take you back to 2004. This is a Google Trends chart. Red Line is Pinot Noir. The blue line is a different kind of wine. In 2004 something happened that changed wine for over. So back in 2004 I went to see a movie about wine with my friend and now our CMO at Unbounce, Jeremy. And because we're adults we tried to sneak in two bottles of Pinot Noir in our jackets, because that's what you do. So we're sitting there and we're taking turns pouring it, and there's a wine tasting scene happening in the movie. All of a sudden the guy sitting two rows in front of me goes "oh shit I can smell wine this is amazing!" Because I wasn't doing the right angle to put in my glass, I was just doing this and it was running around the bottle and going all over the floor. I spilled red wine everywhere. And then this scene happened [movie clip].
[00:10:14] It changed wine for ever because Merlot is the other one and that's when Sideways came out, right there. And I predicted the time, and sure enough four years later, Sideways effect confirmed. Sorry Merlot. And this. I love this way of describing it: "It only takes one tree to make a thousand matches, it only takes one match to burn a thousand trees." 13 years. I have not bought a single bottle of Merlot because of that movie. That's the impact trends can have. They're dangerously powerful.
[00:11:16] How was my Scottish accent in that intro, by the way?
[00:11:26] Okay, so this is why I create this process. It's an optimization process to solve these two problems. One the impact of trends. How do we deal with this stuff when it comes at us? How do we validate that this is actually beneficial to the experience and to conversions, and also how do we make teams work better together? So that's what this is about. Going to rock through the process - what it is - but I'm going to come back to it later with an actual example of a trend and we'll go through the whole thing.
[00:11:54] So it starts with checking the playbook. 3 Ds: data-driven design. I like alliterations. I actually prefer data-informed design as a concept but that doesn't have 3 Ds, so it's data-driven design. Okay so we consult the playbook to see what we should do. It's kind of like a look up table: so maybe I'm interested in a hero shot, hero image, and it will then tell me I should pay attention only to this small subset of data. Because there's data everywhere, which is amazing but also problematic because there's too much and people get overwhelmed. They don't know what they should be looking at, especially someone who's maybe not an advanced marketer. So this will focus your attention. This is what it looks like: it's a giant interactive Google sheet. I'll play a video. Along the top, in yellow, are all the types of data and data sources. Down the left are different objects on your page or trends, that kind of thing. The green boxes are where they intersect and they all have notes on them explaining why it all matters and how you should use it, and then you can filter it. There's a menu at the top, you choose the thing you want and it'll just show you that only. Super useful.
[00:13:03] Then you have to collect that data. Now this is where the collaborative process has to start. If you can work with other people on the team and kind of assign who gets what data. So it's a simple checklist: you write down all the data that the playbook says you should be getting, and what tool you're going to use, who's going to do it, what sample size you need and so on. All the details here are in the playbook as well and it will make those recommendations for you. You use it as a checklist to make sure you do it. And if you have a designer or a copywriter, and you have them going to collect data, they're going to start realizing where it comes from. This is where the empathy begins, when you start looking at these things together to understand how someone else thinks and how they will react to it.
[00:13:53] This takes me to the third part which is making observations. You have to look at the data together. Whether it's a recording or doing a usability tests or just looking at a chart, whatever it is do it together because you're going to see different reactions from different people, and it can be helpful for relationships. So again, best thing with these is to print them out and do it by hand in a room as a team. So look at the data and just write down everything you see, whether it's good or bad, if it's broken, if it's awesome, whatever it is just have all these observations written down and you rate them by severity. Five is like a serious bugs, so someone can complete what the task is. So that's how you've got all these observations. You did it together.
[00:14:43] Now this part you assign micro metrics. Now what I mean by that? If you're familiar with UK racing bike racing you might be familiar with this. It's all about these little pieces of the whole that when you optimize them everything gets better, and that's not an original concept. But in this context for optimization it's a little bit different than just looking at conversion rate, which isn't enough. So here's a different way of thinking about: it helps you measure all of your design decisions. I'll make a little bit clearer. So, the playbook says: "look at these seven types of data." We've done that. Then we made all these observations. So now we have all this stuff that we've observed and written down. Then you have to make three choices for each of them: 1) Do nothing. So you observe something, and it's cool but there's nothing I can do there, I'm not interested, it's just interesting. 2) Or you can fix it if it's a bug. 3) Or you can measure it and use it as a micro metric. So when you are running a test you're not just looking for the conversion rate, because that's not enough, and you'll see why as I go through this.
[00:15:55] So in this case [on screen], two of them I'm going to fix and two of them I'm going to track, and again I'll explain that in a second. Okay. So [slide on screen reads: I just made 4 people fall asleep] that's optimistic. There are about 500 people in here who probably have some semblance of understanding about what I'm talking about, but there are four people here who have no fucking clue of anything I'm saying. None whatsoever. That would be my family who are sitting down here. Where's the guy with the video camera? Is he not here? Okay can we just embarrass them? Like give them a big round of applause? It's the first they've ever seen me speak. I was way more nervous come on on stage with you there then than 6000 people in Brazil. You guys are intimidating.
[00:16:47] Okay so then you get to the sketchy part. No it's not sketchy but you're doing sketches. You do this again as a team. You print these things out and you look at your observations and think "how would I MacGyver this? How would I fix it?" There's two ways you can do this. You can either take each observation and sketch your solution to that. So maybe you need bigger underpants and maybe that's the design solution. Maybe we need some, you know, some immature jokes in our copywriting. Pandas are kind of like bacon - they make everything better - so maybe put a panda in there. And then we'd be unique as a business or a snowflake, so you can either do them individually or you can take all of them and decide to solve it with this one big idea. And now this is the point where you give these things to the designer. You don't bring them in and go "hey we did a bunch of thinking, can you design something, can make this look pretty?" No, they worked on it but then they can take all of this stuff, all these ideas and roll that into their design for whatever. They're doing and it's a much smarter way of doing it that would get much better results and happier people.
[00:18:01] Then you have to run a test and not just look at conversion rate. Look at the micro metrics that you set up. Measure it before, you make your changes and you see the difference in them. You'll see in a bit why it's so important to do this.
[00:18:20] So one of the questions I asked was "what kind of data do you most like that you dont usually get?" These are the responses. The interesting one for me was number 2: Industry benchmark reports. And I have one to share with you which is really awesome.
[00:18:37] But before I get to it I need to tell you a story. Well a while ago Nicole and I were going to Nashville - I was speaking at an event there - and the plane arrives kind of late. It's like 10:30 in the evening and the bags take an hour to get to the carousel, and I'm super stressed out. My laptop has died because there's no power on a plane and my slides aren't finished. I'm talking the next day. So eventually the bags come out, we're in a massive taxi lineup and see one limo. Go over there. "Are you available?" "Yes I am" "Okay." Takes our bags, we get in the limo and I say "we're going downtown to the Thomson hotel." "Yes sir." Off we go. Twenty minutes later he goes, "You know what, I don't think you're my first fare. Actually not even my second fare. I think I'm going to have to take you and drop you off of with the lady." I'm like: "What are you talking about?" And then he pulls over in the middle of nowhere and gets out and calls his dispatch, comes back in and says: "yeah you're not you're not my fare." I tell him we're not his fare at all! We came out, I said "Can we get a ride?" and you said yes. I look at Google Maps, here's Nashville [points], there's downtown. We're like 20 m inutes over this way. He's gone the completely wrong direction. So he says there'll be another limo to pick you up soon. Where?. Back at the airport. So we go back to the airport. Super stressed now, it's really late but there's nobody there and there's one taxi so that's fine. We get in there, but before we do Nicole takes a photo of the limo and gets this guy's business card, because she's super sneaky. And she gets on Facebook and goes to this limo company's Facebook page and starts describing the horrible experience. We parked in the middle of the road, got out and we're feeling awkward, and lost and belittled by the whole experience. And then we figured out how funny it would be to talk about on stage the next day. So thank you for this awful experience. They reply and instead of saying sorry they say: "well we don't take appointments and now you've ruined someone else's trip." No we asked, you let us in. It's not our fault, it's your fault. And Nicole is lovely, really lovely, but you do not want to fuck with her. So she gets back on there and says "well your driver shouldn't have let us in! And again thanks for the terrible thing, it's going to be funny. Then they lose their shit. They're putting hash tags on Facebook even though that's not going to work, trying to get in touch with the conference organisers. "Take a look at how these horrible these people are!" They stalked us, got our Twitter handles. Just awful people. So well okay. What do you do with that? Well, you take their 4.2 star rating, you both rate it 1 and it's 3.9. We just wanted a hug. We just needed someone to say sorry for the bad experience. And not to mention when we get downtown finally there's no power on the block, there's been a flood, so we get into the room living by our phone lights and I can't charge my laptop still. Anyway stressful stressful situation and my very long winded point is that travel and anger don't go well together.
[00:22:10] This is from our commercial benchmark report. It's a machine learning based study. 75 million interactions with 64000 landing pages, so landing pages that have forms in 10 different industries. And here, what it showed was that the more words in the anger spectrum, emotion conversion rate was going down. There's a lot of cool stuff in there. There are 10 industries in there. It's on the landing page or should link again so you can see where you are, how you stack up with other people in your industry. But more importantly, if you go back to the playbook in the text part, there's four more things that this report has: word count, reading ease, sentiment and emotion. So you can measure this stuff and if a report says you need to be more like this, then you can measure it and make changes. Some cool tools.
[00:22:57] This is like an IBM Watson thing. So with this you talk to it and it transcribes what you're saying and it shows the emotion. So this is me telling the story of Nashville to this machine and you see the anger and fear going up. There's a little bit of joy when I like how we're going to mess with them, but usually it was just like not good. So this is a really fun way to see how your rating stacks up, and they have another one which is just text based. You put it in there and it'll give you all this cool stuff. So if you see from the report that, for example, you need more joy or less negative sentiment that kind of thing, then you can use these tools to look at your copy and make some adjustments.
[00:23:45] Travel is supposed to be joyful. It's supposed to be good. This is the end of our street [photo on screen] where my parents live, last year. Thank you Brian for inviting me back every year. It's awesome. Means a lot to me and yeah, a few days after that I get emotional. A few days after Turing Fest last year we got engaged. So that was fun. Right.
[00:24:15] So back to the trends. At the end of last year I saw one of the most interesting design trends I've ever seen. It's called a conversational form. Now this was created by an agency in Copenhagen called Space 10. They're really into human experience. What it does is it will take a script, in its regular form, and transform it in to a conversation, into a chat type thing.
[00:24:38] So this is what looks like [on screen]. That's just a regular forum that now looks like a chat, or a chat bot, but completely different experience. I was really excited. I wanted to validate this to see if it was actually a good experience. So you know there we go. Okay so, check the playbook. What does it say for a conversational forum? We need to look a session recording, do some usability tests, scroll click map, and lead data. So I'm going to go through these things.
[00:25:17] First thing I do I use hot jar, so I'm collecting data. It's boring slide. Okay this is all stuff I'm going to collect. So I immediately put hot jar on there to get a session recording. First thing I want to do. And again, so in all of these green things it will give you advice as to how you should use the data in that context. This was the page I put it on. I got this recording five minutes after I launched the page, slightly sped up. It just gets chaotic. This guy is trying to fill it in and then there's an error, and it just gets worse and worse and worse and these guys are freaking out. And then you refresh the page and go through it all over again with the exact same result. I'm ruining this guy's life this is such a horrible experience. I feel so guilty and this is again where the empathy comes in. And so I'm like, what I'm going to do?
[00:26:11] Well first of all I'm going to make some observations: very erratic scrolling clicking and the error handling was broken, that was a problem so that he couldn't complete the task. The first thing I did was freak out, but then Nicole being the smarter person of the two of us to and who was sitting next to me tells me that he put his email in. Bruce put his email in the thing, you should reach out. So I did. Bruce I'm so sorry about your experience, I was testing something and watched a recording. You had a horrible time. Here's the content you were trying to get. Again I'm really sorry. Two minutes later he replies with: "That was the best thing I've seen in 25 years. Owning up to a mistake and dealing with it. Much more likely to engage with Unbounce as a brand in the future." So something awful turned into something quite lovely and very positive just by observing that data.
[00:27:02] Okay what's it like on a phone? It looks like this. Then when you click on the place where you enter a text, the keyword pushes it up so you can't see the question. That's terrible, you don't know what you're answering. So I just simply turned that off. On the mobile version I just don't show it because I'd have to write some new code to fix it. OK. Usability test. A lot of people think that it is a bit overwhelming to do usability tests, it doesn't have to be. It can be super easy, super quick and super super free. I just Slacked 10 people in the company and said "Hey can I borrow you for two minutes running a usability test?" And everyone is like "Yeah!" because people like being included.
[00:27:43] And this again is where the empathy comes from. This is how you build a culture of optimization in your company. So I did really really simple instructions. We're evaluating the page, not you. You can't do anything wrong and if anything goes wrong it's the page's fault not yours. Then I had one very simple task for them. And you get them to read it out first, so you read out the task so: I searched Google for a course and arrived here, find a way take the course and then verbalize everything you do and think. So that's what they're doing. I used Camtasia to record the screen and also because you can get the cameras and see people's facial expressions. Because that can be really helpful to figure out their level of disgust.
[00:28:26] All right so the first thing: [user describes confusion about three dots typing]. Ok so there are three dots. It doesn't do anything but we're used to, from chat and messenger things, that means someone's typing. In this case there wasn't anyone typing so it made Maggie sit and wait for a while. So not serious, but a little confusing. [User on screen describes worry about time]. So because it's not a regular forum where you can see it and go "Four fields? That's ok", you have no idea when it's going to end. That's a bit of a barrier so we need to solve that problem.
[00:29:13] Click map. I saw something really weird. This is where you should be going. That's weird. [User video can't click on what they want]. She's clicking on the first question. That's not what you're supposed to be doing. In fact 12 percent of people did that same thing. So that's a problem. People are clicking on something that's not interactive and it's not what they should be doing okay.
[00:29:45] And finally lead data. And now this was really important to me because this is such a new interaction model. Are people more afraid of putting an email address in this new thing they maybe don't trust? Two and a half times as many fake email addresses came into this compared to a regular forum. That's a big problem, that's a 5. So you really got to solve that one. Now you don't want spam e-mails coming through and that affects your lead quality and makes everything you're marketing less good.
[00:30:19] We're all familiar with these. Back in '97, first interruptive device that captures. Pain the ass, sometimes funny, but then ten years later a group got together and they made it better. Same kind of functionality but now it's doing good. So instead of just being something in the way, the words are digitized words from old texts that machines can't read, so it's great for accessibility and bringing these books into the future. A really great thing but there are some exceptions. Not everything that was ever written needs to be living on forever. [Examples on screen]. Unbelievable. Unexpected gifts from the animals of Africa. And in this one, Kilty as charged, romance, suspense! I'm pretty sure that's Keanu Reeves.
[00:31:39] Alright so we need to define the Micro Metrics for these observations we just made. So these were all the observations I made, and again do nothing, fix or optimize. So the forum I'm just going to fix: turn off the required fields because that was causing the error. We're going to disable it on mobile, hide the dots because they had no value and add a little "only for quick questions" subheads so people know how long this thing's going to last for. And then we're going to these two things: The percentage of spam emails and the number of people clicking in the wrong place there. There are two things I want to fix. That's what this whole process is about. Changing on-page behavior using data and design. If we can influence these two things in a positive way that's way more important than just the conversion rate. Because say you run a test and it flatlines. Eh okay, it didn't win but should we push this live because it doesn't matter? You don't really know what's going on. With micro metrics you get to dig a lot deeper and make decisions based on things that might actually be more important than conversion rate.
[00:32:47] Design Card Mockups. For this I did a couple of mockups so I want people to stop clicking on that thing. One of my hypotheses was that it doesn't look like a traditional forum: there's no CTA, there's no big shiny orange button, so people don't really know where to start. And we all know orange is a compelling color and so I did that to try and draw other attention. Also when they see that it says "type your answer here" so hopefully it will be fewer people clicking the wrong place. And this one for the spam. It used to say what is your work email. So I changed that to say "which email should we send the course link to?" That way people think "oh I have to put a real email address in here." Those that design decisions I've made to try and change on-page behaviour. So you get all these, you give the designer, they can take this and turn it into something based on all this data and observations. In this case there's not much difference because I'm just focusing on the forum. And label everything.
[00:33:49] So I ran an AB test on this to see how it performed and to look at these micro metrics. So the first one, clicking that first question which you shouldn't be doing, cut it in half. That's amazing. Changing behavior number of fake emails, down by 37 percent by just that little bit of a different instruction. But while I was there I counted this. I've done a lot of testing on this before where you can just, by changing a word in your field label, you get more pro emails like "company name dot com" not Gmail. This is great because when you're doing your marketing you're emailing them when they're at work making business decisions. So for this I got way worse: a lot more personal email addresses. And I think I know why, because I took the word work out when I changed it. So I'm going to go back in and put work our business back in there to try and reshift that conversion rate.
[00:34:50] It's a low traffic page, so to be significant it's going to take about 12 weeks. It hasn't finished yet but right now it's totally flat. It's not going to win or lose. So in that situation it could just be a wasted effort, but with these things I've learned how to change behavior. I become a better optimizer and I've made the performance of this page way better than it was with the conversion rates the same. That's how important these micro metrics are. Right.
[00:35:21] So you remember this guy [photo on screen]. This is Corey, one of our marketing directors. He's very cynical. He's not always that sad. This was for a video shoot. So I asked him, when I was preparing for this talk, about the explainer video. What do you remember? "Well we made up a bunch of shit and we started because we thought we needed a video." There's nothing good about the way we started this project. Clear. Okay so I'm going to show you a little bit of it so you understand what we created.
[00:36:06] [Video plays]: Every marketing campaign needs a landing page. We need them often and we need them fast. I could use some help from design, but she's in the middle of a big project. And I'll need a developer to actually code the page for me, but our developers are busy, and building a landing page is not at the top of the list. That's how getting landing pages built use to be. But now I use Unbounce. With the Unbounce landing page builder I can start with a template or I can build my landing page from scratch. It's quick and it's easy. I drop in my headline... [Video stops]
[00:36:39] We hated that guy afterwards. Our team was really frustrated by this because all this time and money and effort we put into this... It was really frustrating. Here's a Venn diagram of marketing team frustration. The biggest overlap is marketers and designers, they really don't seem to get along well. There's a lot of tension there as you saw at the beginning. That's what this process is designed to solve, but there's a lot of negativity at the start right? All these frustrations and people not liking one another.
[00:37:40] So I went and did another survey but this time I said: "what's awesome about working with a designer and marketer or copywriter?" Marketers talking about designers: "They take a concept and do magic." I saw that that word come up a lot when people were anonymously talking about designers. If designers only knew that someone feels that way about them. Designers talking back at marketers: "They're enthusiastic and motivated. Full of ideas" Yaaay business! "Full of ideas even if most of the ideas are bad". The relationship still needs a lot of fixing. Designers talking about copywriters: "They're intelligent." And finally, "They are our symbiotic organism. We die without them." That's pretty nice!
[00:38:59] Data-driven design leads to empathy which leads to results that actually matter.
[00:39:11] Thank you very much for listening. That's the link to get all the stuff.